Let’s not forget the last Capital Projects Election - the Sconti Restaurant Rebuild, and its still developing financial outcome.
Many Big Canoers saw the financial disaster coming as indicated in their comments below.
Do we really want to “PRE-APPROVE” money (CIF) for “future” no-bid capital projects?
Sconti Restaurant Rebuild Comments
(What the property owners said right after the Sconti election.)
Big Canoe – 1/31/2006
(Note that the last 19 comments were very telling.)
What a shocker! This doesn’t look good.
People who think that new means better will be very disappointed.
There is no real expectation that it won’t be a huge money pit.
I’m not sure how we can expect something like this to increase our property values if potential buyers ever found out about the real financial situation.
I think the board thinks that they are making us feel better by being able to vent….but they don’t really care what we are saying. They care what the developer is wanting.
It looks like the decision has been made to bull ahead with this boondoggle regardless of what anyone else says.
I hope that we are not too stupid……but history seems to be that the board does what the board wants to do
It is sad to see what has happened to our beloved Big Canoe. It has lost that “old time spirit” that I came here for. We are considering leaving to search for it again.
The fact is, the board is in the pocket of the developer
Anyone who believes this group has our interests at heart should consult professional help.
Property owners are finally catching on to the reality that the POA Board will do what it wants with little regard for property owner concerns and inputs it seems.
Competence, integrity, and strength are the foundation blocks for being an effective director. Make your own judgments as to how members of the new board stack up in this regard.
The POA Board President has all the power. He can table any motion for action that he wants without regard to the other elected directors.
If you have a problem with our new Board, then it is most likely a problem with the Board President.
But based on my observations and dealings with the 2005 POA Board, the new President was playing on both sides-of-the-fence in 2005. He didn’t take any position that the developer disfavored.
Right now it doesn’t look promising for the property owners.
I really feel like the board is going to totally ignore any input from the property owners if it is negative
You can almost rest assured that when the town meeting is held, they will tell us that the vast majority of those completing the surveys were anxious to get this project underway.
Isn’t it GRAND that we now have a POA President that is in the pocket of the developer?
NOW WE’RE ON TO THE BIG CANOE BIG DIG (Like Boston).
What a JOKE.
I am surprised that they asked anybody about anything. But it doesn’t matter anyway, because they will not listen to a thing we say.
Hide and watch. This could be expensive, ridiculous, fun! I’m betting there are people here who will NEVER be spoken to again because of this.
I personally believe that we should seriously consider what makes sense from a financial aspect rather than rushing headlong into a project that has very serious long-term implications.
The developer is going to be the primary beneficiary from this proposed amenities plan. He is laughing all the way to the bank.
The amenities taskforce has put together a very comprehensive plan for updating our facilities and I agree that we really do need to upgrade our amenities. I was initially impressed with their work and supported the assessment. However, the proposition doesn’t really seem to be appropriate at this time.
As others have said, this is a windfall for the developer.
I believe we should go a little slow on this project.
We should carefully think this one through before obligating ourselves to this extent.
In the corporate world, you would never go forward on a program of this magnitude with such a limited amount of information.
While a world-class new facility would be wonderful, we really must look at the costs and benefits objectively.
The developer should definitely pay a sizeable chunk of the cost.
We need experienced financial and project specialists to run this. Let’s invest in experts who will ultimately save us money and spare us heartache.
The Sconti club house/restaurant is a money pit.
Spending million on this restaurant is a bad business decision.
The developer controls our POA.
And the way this whole amenity package voting was accomplished is beyond the pale.
Between having the POA “special assessment” tacked to our POA bill and a vote on something we knew nothing about while our home was under construction, I am waiting for the other shoe to fall. [Capital Initiation Fee]
If we had all the money lost by the Sconti Restaurant, we could build a new Sconti and have money left over for other improvements.
The Sconti is, and always will be, a Money Pit.
We are not here to compete with other communities.
We are here to live in relative peace and quiet. Sconti serves that need. If you want competition, Atlanta is the place to be. Better yet, Buckhead is the place.
If other mountain communities have amenities you want, go there!
If Big Canoe had a better financial plan over the past 25 years to keep the amenities in good condition, we wouldn’t have to be shelling out $25/mo. for the next 5 years. Hopefully we will not make that mistake again.
The management company is being paid to lose as much money as we are willing to pay.
This is not a good approach nor will spending $7 million or so do anything to improve this situation.
Unless big changes are made, it’s doomed to fail - no amount of breathtaking view or fancy interior design will make it successful without great food and outstanding customer service - something I find lacking in many BC amenities!
It is just fine for what it is and where it is. You want perfection, drive the 100 mile round trip to Buckhead and dine at The Palm.
I think the biggest change Big Canoe has seen of late, and will continue to see, is the influx of new residents who “demand” the type of lifestyle they left behind and are “shocked and indignant” at the quality of this or that.
Quit yer bitchin’ and remember - your in the mountains of RURAL PICKENS COUNTY, not Dunwoody.
I moved to BC because of the covenants and restrictions, which add more to the quality of life here than an overpriced white elephant restaurant.
We could have a building the likes of the Waldorf, but without any kind of management, it will make no difference at all.
Come on, a new building is not going to help this problem.
It really doesn’t matter. They are going to do what they want regardless of input from the property owners anyway.
There is something really fishy going on with this whole deal, and we’ll get to the bottom of it before too long.
Let’s keep on top of it……for some reason, “they” think that all the people of Big Canoe have just tons of money. Well, “they” are wrong.
My only complaint is the specific solution proposed. It is an abortion.
Now they say we need a complete new clubhouse that will cost many millions of dollars. Ohhhh boyyy! We are REALLY going to fix it this time, just like we did all those previous times.
DUH!!! Will anybody explain to me the rationale for spending the kind of money we are talking about spending (or ANY money for that matter) when the business model has NEVER been successful in the entire history of Sconti?
For all of those that voted for this, if this is good business and you believe in it, then YOU finance it.
And I also want all of those who voted for this to stand up and be counted when the new Sconti comes in with revenue short falls.
Does anyone know if they still teach basic business economics in schools any more?
Have our leaders lost their ability to think.
Maybe having the same “good old boy” crowd running things has created too much inbreeding.
God Bless us, we need it.
As it stands now, nothing will lure us back to Sconti.
We all know it will not work. We all know it is destine to fail. We should not do anything but roll up in our homes and hope the end is near.
This has been a done deal from the get go and the three members of the board of directors rushed this through before the other members could be seated and have a say on it.
They deliberately miscommunicated to all property owners and it has been said, they also manipulated the voting.
As it has been pointed out, the Sconti has never made money. In the business world, you build a model, make it work, cookie cutter it and make money. Who in his right mind would cookie cut Sconti?
By building a new facility, those that voted for this boondoggle think they are going to increase their property values. AIN’T going to happen. All we are going to have is a bigger red herring on our hands to maintain and insure.
It isn’t about the food or service quality to them. It is about snobbery. They can’t afford to live at the Country Club of the South, so they come here and pretend that they can. If it rains, they’ll all drown with their noses stuck up in the air.
Sconti is perfectly sized for the use it gets now. In fact, there are many times it is too large.
I hope all of those that voted for this will go there and hear my voice echoing saying I TOLD YOU SO!
Certainly the facility needs improvement, but $4.5 million is a lot to bet on something that hasn’t performed for 30 years. [How about 11 millions.]
If it were your business would you make the investment?
Without question, the facilities could be better but I cannot see how investing a large sum of money in “hardware” is justified when most of the problems at Sconti have historically been with the “software”.
My worst-case scenario is that another much larger round of investment will be laid in and we will not see any improvement because we did not address the root cause of the problems with Sconti.
There isn’t a businessperson anywhere who would put money into Sconti until it figures out how to run at a profit.
You prove the business plan, AND THEN you expand it.
You don’t run a business at a loss for 25 years and expand it.
If you are going to make mistakes, you make small ones that are relatively inexpensive.
You DO NOT build a four and a half million-dollar building and hope it will cure the problems you’ve had since inception.
But then, one must at least have taken Econ 101 to be able to know that and it is obvious those who voted for this project did not.
The current design reminds me of the Chatooga Club in Cashiers NC. This has been a white elephant if there ever was one.
I am sure for $1,000,000.00 or less we can keep “ the restaurant with the greatest ambiance in Atlanta”. And solve the golf parking and kitchen problems.
The answer is not to tear them down but fix the obsolescent.
How can it be right to tear down an irreplaceable beautiful building?
I understand this ho-hum restaurant is going to cost us $4,000,000.00+-
The one who stands to gain the most is the Developer…why doesn’t he build a new clubhouse and donate it to the POA from all the profits he generates…sure he wants everything here new so he can sell more and then be long gone…
This whole process of the Amenities was rushed and needs to be carefully discussed and a proper plan developed…and we should have the support of 80-85% of the community before going off the deep end like some are proposing.
The POA needs to stand up for itself and so easily give in to the Developer’s wants. I can’t understand why people here don’t get it. The Developer has tried to control everything in here. It is time to stop that once and for all!
Don’t build another clubhouse to solve an operating and management problem.
While I agree we should look at something new, we first need to resolve the question why Sconti can’t do as well as Piazza and Appalachian Grill.
I’m tired of subsidizing a losing proposition. A new building doesn’t resolve the problem.
Not a single dollar of property owner funds should be spent on replacing the Sconti until the management and operating issues can be resolved.
What is the point of building a bigger restaurant that will continue to lose money, only resulting in bigger losses?
Building a new facility will put a new face on an old problem.
A new facility won’t solve management problems such as overly high payroll and food costs.
Woe to the POA board who is in power when the new facility opens and continues to lose money.
It would be really great if we could factually resolve the question why Sconti can’t do as well as Piazza and Appalachian Grill.
I think the Sconti should be left as is.
This proposal we’re facing is just too expensive and too risky.
I am not sure that building a new Sconti will solve those problems.
Why tear down a great looking structure unique in it’s architecture and rebuild with something much less appealing to the eye to say the least?
We are going to put ourselves in debt up to our ears no matter how you look at it.
I can’t believe there isn’t a much less expensive way to improve the Sconti without removing it entirely.
We don’t do it now and it’s costing us a fortune to underwrite the losses. What’s it going to be when you add on $5 million more in debt?
I guess we are stuck with the decision but in the long run it will probably force us out of Big Canoe. [For some, it is]
It’s just getting too expensive and Big Canoe is turning into a community more interested in acquiring “things”.
We hope saner minds will prevail somehow. There has to be a better and much less expensive alternative!
I have had clearly indicate that the single most frequent reason for people voting against the Amenity proposal is the proposed clubhouse.
I have yet to hear anyone say anything complementary about the proposal, and yet, all seem to agree that the present Sconti needs to be replaced rather than overhauled.
INSTEAD OF SPENDING 4.7 MILLOIN…SPEND $500,000 and fix up what’s there…. I like it very much as is….
The 45-vote [46] count difference is very significant. My no vote was not registered, due to me not properly reading the Ballot; it did not appear that there was time enough allowed to return. Yes, it was my error, but how many others could or did make the same error.
46 people do not constitute a majority in my mind.
A block of 200 available votes [the time-share votes and developers] will swing most of Big Canoe elections one way or the other.
If the same block [block-of-votes] is for sale and/or sold, it will corrupt those elections.
When there is a motion to discuss vote buying at a non-public POA Board meeting, only to have it tabled (a refusal to permit the board to discuss), community trust in the POA Board evaporates, not soon to be recovered.
We have bitten off more than we can chew.
There are many people here with fixed incomes.
A Big Canoe Committee Chairman once told me (during a Committee meeting): “If they can’t afford to live here, they need to move.” I was heart broken by his
The financial future of Big Canoe does not look good.
I predict that this Special Assessment Amenity Package will become Big Canoe’s Big Dig.
I predict that you are correct. I further predict that all of those who had anything to do with getting this pushed through and all of the board members will be outcast and shunned by those of us who know what they did.
If you look at the communications announcement, you will see that the whole agreement with the developer is considered confidential.
Yes, you are correct. Being able to view the confidential agreements between the developer and the Board would help you to understand.
These agreements list the details of projects and the benefits for the POA Board and the benefits for the developer. Keeping this type of document secret is common business practice.
You trust your elected U.S. Congressmen; why shouldn’t you trust your elected Board directors?
We need to trust our directors; we need to be able to classify documents as confidential for better governance.
I can almost see a reason in business. However, this is our money. Nothing you mentioned would seem to be inappropriate for us to know.
Sorry, but I just don’t agree with the secrecy. It’s not like we are giving away trade secrets or something. This goes beyond the current board; I think we have a right to know.
How can we trust our directors when they refuse to share the contents of these negotiated agreements?
Every time the Directors enter into a “secret” agreement with the developer, they betray the trust of the community.
When they were running for office, all of them continually harped on openness, looking out for the residents’ interest, trust, honesty, etc.
Concerns about conflicts of interest, voting irregularities and secret deals with the developer are probably only the tip of the iceberg. It is all very disappointing to say the least.
Yes, and when “certain” Directors come up with a Classification System to make confidential, to make secret, and to hide past and future Board/Developer agreements, they betray the trust of the property owners.
Every time the Directors enter into a “secret” agreement with the developer, they betray the trust of the community.
I completely agree with the above quote.
A POA Board committee has said that our monthly fees are below those of other gated communities. Want to guess why this study was done?
The Board has said that it can raise the monthly fees almost 100% (one time increase) without community approval. Want to guess why this option was studied?
For some individuals, living here will become very expensive by today’s standards. Upon your death, will your spouse be able to live here without a portion of your retirement income?
Personally, my confidence in the Board to always put the interests of the property owners first is gone.
12 users commented in " Warning Voices from Big Canoe’s Past "
Follow-up comment rss or Leave a TrackbackLove the new club house. Money well spent. Would like to see something similar with the tennis center.
Wow! What is really apparent here is how hard it is to please so many different people with so many different opinions and/or agendas. There is a younger group of people moving into Big Canoe-people with more income and higher expectations than older retired folks might have-thus you will hear nothing but complaints between these two groups.
The one group can’t tell the other who buy here to shut up and drive to Atlanta if they want a decent meal, ambiance or service from a restraurant-I say shut up and move to an assited living facility if that is all you expect from a commercial venue where you live!! I am a younger person married to an older person close to retirement. We wonder every day if this place is going to become too expensive for us to live on a fixed income-maybe so. What I do know for sure is we spend money on eating and drinking. If they can pile them into Fuego’s, Appalachia, the Foothills restaurants etc. and obiviously make money as there are no residents subsidizing these places than why can’t we do the same thing at Sconti? My feeling is because we don’t know how to manage ourselves at least in the amenities department. I think that has been really proven with this club house that is turning more into a fiasco every day. We have already run off the chef-the ensuing problems have caused many people to throw up their hands give up on the place and we have gotten ourselves into a fine mess regarding how much the place needs to make without subsidizing from the POA. While the facility is very nice, I as a designer and my husband as an architect find it interesting that it has gone so over budget to begin with and we can’t figure out exactly where that money went. We find that we have a facility with great big halls, architectural details and a fine view with cheap art, accessories and furniture that makes the place feel-not cozy but like a retirement home; workers trying to deal with reservation issues run amok; a disappearing chef pissed off at interference from this POA group etc.
We need to lease the amenities to people who know what they are doing and stop trying to run things from within and that takes all the power out of the POA and/or developers hands-if the place can’t or won’t make money than it needs to be closed or the Developer can subsidize it so it helps him with his sales. I for one don’t feel like paying for all the people who won’t demand better to have a place they can go for cheap food and an early bird special-stay at home and cook for yourselves-the rest of us will go pay at a good place and enjoy ourselves! As to continuing to give this board money after what has happned so far-NO WAY!! I want to see us stay nice but I don’t trust that this group of people are the ones to give that money to. I want a General Manager as well who is paid to run things and make money-not take orders from the POA.
Melanie-it’s obvious that you have discovered that the POA Directors are not listening to what their constituents have to say…but then, they don’t represent us, they represent the POA corporation.
We are all hopeful that the Sconti operation will be successful and it may be at some future date. However I believe that it will take a dining room monthly minimum to get good attendance and make a profit.
In the meantime, go over to Dahlonega and visit Le Vigne Restaurant in Monteluce for an outstanding meal in a club facility that is fabulous and didn’t cost 10 million dollars.
Ask for Sandy Beacham and see how a first rate operation is run. I reccommend that our esteemed Board of Directors go there for an education. To get there follow rte 52 towards Dahlonega until rte 9 -take a left and go 1/2 mile and turn
left on Siloam Church Rd. Go to the stop sign and then go straight -you are om
Hightower Church Rd-Monteluce is on the left about a 1/2 mile.
Jim M.,
How do we pay for it?
If people are going to post comments on this site, they should use their real names. It is so easy to post anonymously. I am proud to be a second generation Big Canoer and have been coming up here since 1973. During these 35 years, I have seen all the various transitions including when we almost lost this entire development to the banks. What we have now is so much better and less dense than the original plans which called for over 6000 units. The amenities are far superior. The quality of development has significantly improved. We are attracting a larger demographic than ever before. Despite a lackluster real estate market, property values have held and in many cases appreciated. I will gladly pay a higher POA assessment to pay for these improvements because I know that this will have a positive impact on my property value. Whatever small monthly increase this would mean will be far outpaced by the market value of my home. The lower the drawbridge mentality (stop spending, stop growing, no more development) that some of these bloggers seem to be suggesting has never worked and never will. Whenever a community stops addressing improvements and rests on its’ laurels is when decline creeps in. Just go back to the 1980’s here and you will see what we almost lost.
So you are a better person for posting with your real name…whatever makes you feel good Jim. In the meantime, if you don’t like the site then that’s your problem. Go point your browser at the stifling POA site or somewhere else.
Son you aren’t the only one that has been here a long time. I know the history of this place as well as anyone. Financial mismanagement has always been at the cornerstone of every crisis in Big Canoe. You also aren’t the only one that loves Big Canoe.
I am one of your boss’s biggest fans (assuming you and your wife are still with the realty company)…as far as developers go he is decent…a good BC Eagle and Society of Jesus fella.
If you want to pay cash for improvements - I am with you. I am not in the ‘lower the drawbridge mentality’ (I also think that is a typical and unfair characterization), but rather the fiscal responsibility and sanity crowd. Going forward Jim the actions of this Board and the previous Board will prove to be an impediment to selling real estate here. Debt and mismanagement have always been the biggest bugaboos to this community…always playing catch up for past mistakes.
There is a HUGE difference between needs and wants. To maintain what we need in an adequate manner and paying for it as we go is not an impediment to selling real estate or a ‘healthy’ community. Our financial problems have been compounded dramatically by the last go around of amenity upgrades that were not adequately funded by the owners and have incurred significant cost increases not included in the scope of what residents were presented in order to approve the assessment increase.
If the board really wants an honest CIF, the exit sales tax approach is worst way to achieve it. The real estate meltdown will continue for a number of years due to the expanding credit crisis and the real possibility of the return to ’stagflation’ and this is how this Board wants to fund the future??
It is just another slick ploy as the $25/month amenity increase vote (I say be honest with the folks and pay cash as debt for a non-profit community association is irresopnsible management in my view - except for emergencies like the dam breaking).
I don’t consider myself better than anyone and I am not disparaging anyones character. I have no problems with this website. My assumption was that this site was for Big Canoe owners to offer various opinions. If the purpose of this website is to merely bash the board then perhaps I should surf elsewhere. I recognize that these are volatile issues and am merely offering up what I feel to be true for me. I believe our board has our best interest at heart. They are not paid to do this job. They were elected by us and if they are not doing what you want them to do then you can run for office yourself or vote for someone more closely aligned to your point of view. The condescending “son” in my mind discredits you from being fair and balanced in your assessments. My post was not a personal attack against you but rather an honest opinion, and a faithful appreciation of the board and this place that I call home. Again, it is easy to attack behind an alias. Stand up for who you are and what you believe. Don’t be afraid to use your name.
I agree with Jim that anyone who offers opinions on this site should use their real name. I do not agree with Jim that property values in Big Canoe have increased. Maybe they have if you purchased more than just a few years ago. We built our house in 2002 and would love to break even. Jim, how much did your parents home increase in value from the time it was built until it sold?
I am shocked that the POA Board is recommending the exit fee for a property owner vote. I attended 2 meetings in reference to the fee, talk to other homeowners on a regular basis, and am still waiting to find more than a handful of people who like the fee. Why doesn’t the Board let us vote on other options?
I read Smoke Signals Online every day and I must have missed a report from the Board on homeowner comments about the fee. If I missed it, would someone please tell me where it can be found.
Oh my golly, where I come from ’son’ does not have a prejudicial connotation. Apologies to you.
I read into your response to ‘how do we pay’ for your suggested upgrades to one of the lowest revenue producing amenities (tennis) as an inference that because you came here as a younger person with your parents your insight was elevated over the ‘lower the drawbridge’ folks (fair and balanced).
Jim we probably agree on more than we disagree on. Giving the Board a pass because they aren’t paid isn’t one in the agree column. Spending other peoples’ money requires exercising a higher degree of fiduciary responsibility. The continued ‘corporate’ mentality has spawned the credibility problem that exists.
If we make the assumption that the elected Board members are intelligent and honest (absent the willingness to govern publicly), then where is the logic not to take a brief TO (timeout) at this stage and take a breath. You don’t have to circle the wagons or lower the drawbridge as you say. Jim Owens has summed it up several times very well in my opinion.
Anonymity - read Pete Shead’s response to Dean on the board. Paranoid perhaps but I don’t trust the powers that be. I have seen and heard too much. Chuckle if you’d like I won’t be offended.
To Jim Elliott:
I may be wrong but believe Jim Mallory works for Big Canoe Realty. BCR may have a different perspective on the real estate market locally.
A different realtor with a well-known agency told me that only 39 ‘properties ” had closed for the period 1/1/08-6/30/08.Properties can include lots. I own a prime location in BC and my house has been for sale since Sept 2007 with two lookers and no offers. I had one BCR guy tell me that the 39 number was
wrong because it only included multiple listing sales!!!!!
The POA is NOT listening!!
Last Wednesday, a Big Canoe realtor told me that he has plenty of business, just no business at Big Canoe.
He told me of one of his buyers from Florida; the buyer is looking at lots for a future home in North Georgia.
This realtor sorted through over a 100 lots and gave the buyer information on 12 lots to review and told him that there was not enough time to visit all of the lots in a single day.
The buyer took the 12 lots and removed all of the lots that were in communities that had a HOA/POA (CC&Rs). He wanted to visit only 5 lots, and of course, none of them in Big Canoe.
Don, First of all, what does my being with BCR have to do with anything??? As to your other comment, I said this “will” have a positive impact on “my” property value. I cannot speak for everyone elses’ experience because much depends on the quality of home built, the style of home built, the popularity of the floorplan, the view, the location, the proximity to amenities, the proximity to the main gate or north gate, the elevations, the year built, who built it, etc.
If my parents had accepted the first offer they got, they would have experienced a $150,000 appreciation in the three years they owned the house. That would have equated to roughly 12% per annum (not too shabby). Due to health reasons, they were unable to accept the offer at the time. They sure do wish they had done so now.
The current real estate market condition has absolutely nothing to do with Big Canoe and I think everyone knows that by now. We are actually doing a lot better than other areas. It just doesn’t feel that way because we were spoiled from 2005 and 2006’s record sales. According to FMLS, there were 39 single-family homes that closed during the 1/1/2008 to 6/30/2008 time period referenced above. BCR sold 13 of them or a third. (By the way, 6 of them were “Company Houses” and 7 were re-sale homes). If you look at the same time period during 2007, there were 48 homes that closed and BCR sold 17 of them, or 35.4%. All but three were re-sale homes. Going back to 2006, 90 homes closed during January to July of which BCR sold 33 of them, or 36.6%. Only five of those homes sold were “Company Homes.” I don’t know where this rumor started that we only sell Company Property and not re-sales, but it is not true. The proof is in FMLS. I can personally state that most of the homes I have sold here are re-sale homes.
As to the concern that buyers are scurrying away from POA/HOA regulated properties, I doubt that is the majority. Most of the people I talk to (and I deal with developemnt in SC as well), want the security of a gated community, active POA/HOA, and Architectural Controls. There will always be segments of the market doing better at any given time, but in my mind, nothing compares to the beauty of our community, the quality of development and the affordability. Don’t blame the lack of sales here as if there is something inherenlty wrong with Big Canoe, the POA, or the Developer. This is a nationwide crisis, just as is the rising prices in gasoline or the declining stock market. I don’t know the prognosis for the latter two, but as for real estate here in Big Canoe, it will only get better. It has always rebounded and I am sure it will again.